SW#23: Accessibility and Inclusive Design with Eric Bailey

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On this episode of the Software World, I welcomed Eric Bailey, an inclusive design advocate. We talked about accessibility, the importance of inclusive design. In the episode, Eric gives suggestions to software engineers and software engineering leaders about how to approach accessibility. Listen to the episode to learn more.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Candost Dagdeviren: Hello friends! Welcome to the software World with Candost.

[00:00:32] Today I'm on a mission to learn more about accessibility. My guest is Eric Bailey. I discovered Eric on Polywork and contacted him directly to talk about accessibility. These days, I'm trying to learn more about inclusive design and accessibility. That's why having Eric was a great opportunity because he has an excellent knowledge and he's very humble to share all of them.

[00:00:58] Eric is an inclusive design advocate, developer, writer, and speaker. He has written more than a hundred articles for many places such as Smashing Magazine, CSS-Tricks, and Shopify Partners. When you'll listen to the episode, you will learn the basics of accessibility, also the importance of inclusive design. And also you will hear more about what you can do as a software engineer or a software engineering leader when you're already busy adding one feature after another in a project.

[00:01:30] Eric's suggestions are so simple and extremely powerful. Eric also has multiple cool projects around accessibility and you will hear about them in the episode.

[00:01:40] I enjoyed our conversation a lot and I hope you will also enjoy it

[00:01:48] Welcome Eric I'm really glad that you are herein Software World Show And this is a topic that I'm really really curious to learn more and I'm pretty happy that you're here to teach me kind of or introduce me to the area of accessibility Welcome.

[00:02:05] Eric Bailey: Yeah Thank you for having me It's it's really good to be here and to be speaking with you.

[00:02:09] Candost Dagdeviren: Thanks a lot So I want to really directly start asking you like many many questions but of course we are going to start with what is accessibility and where does this A11Y come from Because Many people does not know that And I'm also a bit unfamiliar with the explanation of accessibility.

[00:02:30] Eric Bailey: Sure so for your first question accessibility is the practice of making things capable of being used And accessed by people with disabilities and in a digital context that translates to websites web apps app apps software programs that can also translate to the built environment as well So building access you know different services You know basically anything a person can do in the world the term a 11 Y if you you may have encountered on the web is what's called the neuro Nim which is kind of like an acronym but with numbers So the 11 stands for the 11 numbers in between A which is the beginning of the word accessibility and Y which is the end of accessibility It also reads a little bit as ally which I think is kind of clever and intentional but I'm not the originator of this term so I'm not sure how true that is.

[00:03:38] Candost Dagdeviren: I think this fits really well because like the ally or ally-ship is also a topic or a term that is really related So if you have any idea what like what is ally in this context Why do you think it's related And it's if it's matches with this a 11 Y Yeah That's a really good question so I personally I like the term advocate Because I will speak and write and go on podcasts about accessibility and inclusive design and allyship I feel is something that a marginalized or minoritized group It's a label they put on you as opposed to a label that you put on yourself.

[00:04:21] Eric Bailey: but also like to say that like like many of these groups the disability community is not a monolith There's lots of different groups within it So you know it's one thing to be kind of conscientious of as you learn about this space you know I have my friends that I've made and the people that I know but that doesn't mean they're representative of the entire spectrum of disability.

[00:04:44] Candost Dagdeviren: we are talking about this like accessibility and everything and in these days I hear more and more about it and both like accessibility and diversity and inclusion and everything around it And I'm really happy to hear those terms and also like actions and things more related to that one because I also believe that is very important for society to be inclusive for everyone And in any way we can but why do you think in specific accessibility is really important.

[00:05:22] Eric Bailey: Sure That depends on where you live I think I think big picture it's the right thing to do in the United States where I live it is a civil right So it is one of the most kind of important legal protections that you can have as a citizen many other countries have similar charters and treaties for me it's especially digital accessibility Is the world you know software is eating the world you know everything that we do for better for worst is is online now Or if it's not it will be soon And you want to be able to ensure access And you know it's one thing to be able to pay your taxes online with a screen reader which is a form of assistive technology that some low vision and blind people use But it's really important to remember that like you're a person in the world and like This should extend to things that are not just related to government So you know should I be able to order a streaming movie because I had a really tough day and I just want to unwind yeah should I be able to do that with the technology that I use to you know browse regardless of what it is Yes of course you know should I be able to post on a forum to chat with my friends about some niche industry topic or slack or discord or you know whatever the flavor of the day is Yeah of course you know should I be able to order take out Yeah you know like there's a very important case that happened in the disability accessibility space for Domino's pizza where basically the plaintiff you know sued because they couldn't order Domino's pizza And quite rightly was found you know that like this was this was a problem and the entire case rested on You know the line between a physical storefront and a virtual one is basically so blurry these days that it's functionally the same And it's like Domino's is is bad It's crap pizza It's gross.

[00:07:35] Candost Dagdeviren: I think we can all agree on that.

[00:07:36] Eric Bailey: Yeah But you know should this person be able to order it just like any other person should you know Yeah of course.

[00:07:44] Candost Dagdeviren: What you said for the countries like depending on where you live we can take a look at it from different perspective It's it's all depending on where you live So I'm living in Europe And when I think about for example Germany we have like the all healthcare systems set up here and et cetera everything is so supportive for the social system So it's more like a social government when you think about that but I still see I'm not sure about the government side but when I take a look at it from the private sector like the private companies and et cetera it's still Lacking behind a lot And this is the part where I kind of struggle Why most probably a bit profit base do you have any pinpoint that we can just say Hey yeah this this is why it's more lacking or or maybe is it it's getting better That I don't know I just don't realize it Right So I feel that it's getting better but I'm still not sure.

[00:08:42] Eric Bailey: Yeah I think your instincts are spot on you know Germany in particular if I remember correctly has actually pretty Specific laws about website accessibility and as you've as you've noted you know just because the law says something doesn't mean everyone necessarily does it and this is a very delicate way to say accessibility on the web is very poor which is unfortunate but I do believe it is getting better If you get involved in accessibility work you learn to love small wins over a long period of time because it's you know code is difficult but it's the easy part like writing a boolean or an attribute or is once you know how to do it it's pretty easy but like you correctly pointed out making a priority for accessibility and inclusion with multiple competing interests That's that's the tricky bit that's people and profit if you have a good way to address that but no I I'm seeing accessibility more and more in the mainstream for web design and development and I think it's good And it's only going to get better.

[00:09:56] Candost Dagdeviren: Yeah Once we keep working on it I think And when you mentioned accessibility and inclusion together it reminds me of one note which I saw on a website That's I also want to touch upon that one too in ally or A11Y project I saw a phrase on the website says accessibility is important Inclusion is essential can you elaborate on that a little bit more and maybe more on the sides How does accessible to play with inclusion and how can we be more inclusive.

[00:10:32] Eric Bailey: Yeah yeah yeah that's another really good question so historically accessibility work has been removing Software access barriers So I cannot fill out a form if I can't use a mouse that's an access barrier and that's related to accessibility that's important Like you should be able to apply for a job if you are qualified to work there And I have some friends who have not been able to apply for jobs on the internet because whoever built the job application form excluded them inclusion is systematically Is everyone capable of being aware that that job posting exists Are they being considered What are their needs historically Have they faced barriers to being present in the spaces that you know Our roads to power our roads to being a participant in the dialogue in in society and surprise surprise oftentimes disability is very prevalent in a lot of these marginalized and minoritized groups So I think you can't have one without the other but I think it's important to frame this is not just like fixing code to make screen readers work It's about You know removing barriers to access in society to enable everyone to be participate and be present.

[00:12:03] Candost Dagdeviren: so one thing you said it's not about fixing to call to pass the screen reader feature I've never thought about like I never thought on this way but this is like a thing There are some people who are doing it exactly like that because I remember in my early career we were developing a mobile application and It was my first job after the after university And we were developing a banking application which accessibility plays a big place there And then there was like the task of accessibility implementing those accessibility labels in every button every every everywhere really like and then we were testing it and et cetera Luckily I was At that time I thought luckily I'm not working on it because it's a difficult thing And I'm talking about I dunno seven years back maybe it's it it's better now but it was a difficult thing at that time because the cases that on on mobile phone it was an iOS application You need to like all the time swipe click swipe click and here the word is it correct one Then you sometimes you are not picking up the elements correctly and then et cetera this is like extremely painful process it was at that time Maybe it's better now I don't know but this made think as a software engineer From the software engineers perspective how can I approach to this work and what can I do to make other's lives better Sometimes I don't have any say in the thing that I'm working in Right So but I should be able to have an impact on it somehow Do you have any like I dunno recommendations or anything that might be giving a hint For anyone that can say oh okay Maybe this way I can find that some have an impact It doesn't have to be concrete but any anything works.

[00:14:09] Eric Bailey: Yeah Yeah Yeah I mean I think first the biggest barrier is being aware That accessibility digital accessibility exists I think a lot of software development and software development education overlooks it historically So that's always something that's like I think a lot about the optics of You know you pour your heart and your soul into this project You're really proud of And then at the 11th hour somebody you've never heard of before comes in and says oh you know you gotta add the accessibility And you're like the what now And then you have to learn an entirely new discipline And usually there's not a lot of guidance So like you're like you know if you care about it you're like I want to do a good job I want to like help people but you don't necessarily know what you're doing if it's going to be effective or not so Just being aware that the space exists is huge and having an open mind to wanting to make things better that's to me that's the hard part So and then the other thing I'm a really big fan of is the term shift left which is as much as possible take access questions and inclusion questions and move them Towards the beginning of the product creation phase So if your banking app had a like slide something to like unlock something or to send a transfer you know you can build that It's pretty easy to build in a mobile app framework but what do you do if you can't Reliably move your your hands or if you have hand tremors and you can't actually reliably hold it down and drag it in the way that the app wants you to So you can make it work around for that you know right right Before you hit production or you know or you can in the in the planning phase you can come up with a more inclusive way to go about that transaction you know if that swipe button can be a tap tap to send and then tap again to confirm you know that's far easier for a lot of different disabilities to use and you still get the same kind of effect Which is to say I oftentimes I'm very grumpy at designers and I feel a lot of sympathy for engineers who are often tasked with this when a lot of the damage honestly gets created in the design phase.

[00:16:37] Candost Dagdeviren: That's so interesting because right now when you say we can think about the swiping and then replacing it with I don't know with two taps and then when I think about this I just felt that I found a way to change something because usually when I think about software engineers and the job of software engineering with design we always have these feedback loops between design and engineering whatever you are doing doesn't matter I mean you might be working in an agency as a software engineer and then design directly comes to you You can always you always have a say at these saying Hey this is not doable let's say it this way or you always have a say now with your kind of a thinking framework like approaching from giving a feedback to design and taking care of the design phase Now I feel that I have a place to talk about it or mention it Thanks a lot This this really helps to me now also at the same time Now I'm a team lead and now this is a bit different position I'm thinking like what can I do as a team lead Right Because okay As I mentioned maybe a software engineer that's I can give a feedback to design on the design level but as a teammate or maybe an engineering manager I might have more bigger impact Right And in earlier stages that's why it's a bigger impact But is there anything that I can do more as a maybe a leader besides giving feedback on design.

[00:18:13] Eric Bailey: Yeah I firmly believe that accessibility initiatives are doomed to fail unless they have executive buy-in So the higher up with influence that you are the more successful this program is going to be because You know that is how work gets done so if it is a top level consideration that's great if it's backed up by somebody in a position of influence that's even better you can appeal to authority for candidly the people that aren't interested in doing it and maybe hostile to the idea of adding it to their workflows for someone such as yourself also congratulations.

[00:18:54] Candost Dagdeviren: Thanks a lot.

[00:18:55] Eric Bailey: I love it when basic accessibility testing is part of acceptance criteria because it reframes the conversation away from here's this extra 11th hour thing to Here is a you know a QA check That we should all collectively agreed on like this is how quality software is built And so like bare minimum Does it do this No Okay This is a bug just like any other you know it's not ready to go out yet so try it again and let's see Let's see how it goes.

[00:19:28] Candost Dagdeviren: It's not done right Exactly yeah Definition of done So you said accessible testing is it something that we can Automate or does it have to be manual Because I remember back again my iOS development times and it was manual So I don't know right now but engineers are usually a fan of automation Is it something we can automate.

[00:19:50] Eric Bailey: yes and no like a lot of things in software It depends.

[00:19:55] Candost Dagdeviren: damn again again it depends.

[00:19:58] Eric Bailey: Yeah so there are automated test suites out there for both web and mobile and I enthusiastically recommend them And specifically I recommend a continuous integration continuous delivery approach Because we have all been there We've all ignored the lint linting warnings to just kind of get something pushed up or we don't remember which you know people are fallible for human Exactly but if you have you know a immortal omniscient robot that's just looking at all the code coming in and be like Hmm I don't know about that Like that's a lot easier to handle and that catches a lot of kind of the low hanging fruit that being said There are like bigger usability issues that you should be checking manually and then I'd also like to further point out that the way you would use assistive technology You know hop in for half an hour is a lot different than how a daily user of assistive technology probably will operate some things So the most effective thing you can do is have somebody that uses assistive technology on a daily basis give feedback and what I like what automated testing does here is it removes a lot of the little stuff that like You know it's it's kind of a waste of their time to give you feedback on things that could be programmatically detectable but like usability and like expectations That's great you can't test for that automatically So being very strategic about how you use their time.

[00:21:33] Candost Dagdeviren: it feels like UI and UX testing More like you can automate UI but you cannot automate you UX testing.

[00:21:41] Eric Bailey: I am going to steal that quote I love it

[00:21:46] Yeah yeah Yeah Like you know one of the things I like about inclusive design is you know it is good design so it's like the same way you've ever experienced a frustrating website with your mouse or your track pad or you know your finger on a touch screen That same experience like a frustration can exist for a an assistive technology user Like you're both trying to get the same thing just in a different way And you know it's the same thing as like you could technically maybe muddle your way through but it's not fun You don't have a good time It's not efficient And it's the same thing for for an assistive technology user as well.

[00:22:26] Candost Dagdeviren: One thing I think we can easily say that accessibility is not related fully related with disability because when I think back And I sometimes come across with some websites which has custom scroll built in which doesn't feel natural at all Like some something is different there And when I like scroll I just see things that I don't expect to happen and I cannot really control it And I think we might argue that this is a UX issue but it's still I think it's accessibility too because you don't have to have an disability to to face those problems I think.

[00:23:07] Eric Bailey: Yeah Yeah I think like I'm of the school of thought that like accessible design benefits everybody it is by definition for disabled people But the things that enable them to use the web are also usually very helpful for everyone else you know and like at its heart a lot of accessibility work is about choice So like if you're scrolling and the scrolls all messed up and like you get the parallax scrolling and you're like what's going on here Like the really the kind way to do that Would it be to ask you what your preference is and you will see this sometimes on some really nicely designed websites where you know check this to play the video So you don't open up with a full screen you know bandwidth hogging like flashing video that might have like some seizure effects to show your cool new product Like that's an assault Like I should I should have the ability to choose whether or not I want to experience that as opposed to having it thrust upon me without without any choice.

[00:24:09] Candost Dagdeviren: I saw couple of websites doing that like asking you do you want to disable animations or some other stuff which is so cool And I usually disable them like cause I'm not interested animation at all but I think it's plays a big role in the accessibility and we are talking about accessible design and also We have accessible projects and now I want to pull back a little bit to the part when I mentioned the A 11 Y project which in the website it says accessibility is important Inclusion is essential which I freaking love this saying and this is why I'm just constantly repeating And most probably I'm going to write it on a post-ip put it on my wall and then just keep it on like I side can we can you talk a bit about a 11 Y project because I think it is important And I think our listeners deserve to know what is the project about.

[00:25:10] Eric Bailey: yeah Thank you so the A11Y project is a website that is a open source resource to learn about Digital accessibility and inclusive design historically it was more on the accessibility end of things So like here's the code that you can use to make a form you know accessible it's slowly been shifting kind of to more inclusive design So like here's people's lived experiences here's design considerations that may not necessarily be it code but the idea is that it's all out there It's free and importantly it's open source So if you want to add stuff to it you are empowered to do it We also feature a blog or basically posts by individuals which is open to anyone If you are interested we pay $75 us per article because writing is work And we want to honor that We also have a checklist and the checklist is a list of common Accessibility issues You will find on a lot of websites It's not comprehensive but that's enough to get you basically really thinking about how to think through these things and what to be aware of And it links out to the web content accessibility guidelines which is kind of like the official rule book of like you know here's the legally binding definition of how this constitutes an access barrier It's just phrased in a far more human friendly way and then again this is also open source which is this kind of information should be free And it should be available to everyone and they should be able to contribute back to it as well We also have resources which is just a gigantic list of links broken down by category I need to add sorting and filtering to it Cause right now it's too big But books podcasts such as this one talks you know different disciplines professional companies that will help you In the event that you get sued just a huge Corpus of information PDF remediation was a whole other thing if you ever have to make a PDF don't make it a website that's far easier to make.

[00:27:36] Candost Dagdeviren: I'm trying to stay away from making a PDF all the time.

[00:27:39] Eric Bailey: it is it's a It's a whole other world that I'm glad I don't have to do And the people that do it are unsung heroes but yeah it's it's been around for a very long time It has very good SEO presence because it's a JAMstack site and just sits there with a lot of good information and a lot of people link to it.

[00:28:03] Candost Dagdeviren: Yeah I saw the checklist and to be honest I really liked the checklist because those Things does items on the checklist are so small Some of them you can just squeeze it in When you're opening a PR there are like many items on that list you don't have to spend really time on it It's just adding one field sometimes saves a lot of things or changing the mindset and setting the correct is changing everything on the project.

[00:28:34] Eric Bailey: Yeah I I like where your head's at another really important thing to know for a lot of accessibility work is a little goes a long way So like you know there may be this notion that you want to like we're going to have an accessibility sprint and you know we have two weeks three weeks to just you know knock through as many accessibility issues as we can That always kind of gets put off and put off and put off but like a small little code change here and a little tweak there can have a really dramatic impact on someone's quality of life So you know it's I think it's it's a lot easier or a lot better to just slowly chip away at it as opposed to trying to like get it done once and knock it all out.

[00:29:19] Candost Dagdeviren: It's like a scouting role right So whenever you are doing something like for example I come across a lot of times that people are identifying issues when they are reading the code and they are just fixing it when they're identifying directly because it's so small You don't need to talk about it You just go out and fix it And many of those things can fit into here once you know them And that's why I really appreciate all the effort in A11Y project all the webpage and all the things around that This is so much useful Thank you This is really really nice and I hope everyone will benefit.

[00:29:55] Eric Bailey: Yeah thank you you know it exists for exactly for people such as yourself so I'm glad you got use from it.

[00:30:04] Candost Dagdeviren: there's one more thing that I want to talk about actually two but this one is kind of important because I really liked The idea because here we are talking about changing the perspective and having an empathy and you have this empathyprompts.net website when I saw the link on the and the name it didn't ring a bell but when I get in it's like ah this is so great Everything about accessibility depends on empathy And this is the part where I think is missing most of the time because when people don't have the empathy they usually fail to include accessibility work in the project They don't do it basically And having this websites and these prompts those are really helpful Can you talk a bit about those empathy prompts and how the idea came up.

[00:31:01] Eric Bailey: Yeah thank you so for me it's it's the website's in a bit of a tricky space because simulations are oftentimes ineffective as empathy building tools because you know you put a blindfold on you could take it off that isn't reflective of a blind person's lived experience and there's actually an effect where for these kinds of short term empathy exercises oftentimes it lessens the sympathy or the empathy of the individual because They can go back to how they normally move through the world And they're like oh that was easy on the flip side the reason I created the site is because in the accessibility space there is the bias that a lot of people think that accessibility is just screen readers The interesting thing is that actually makes up a minority of the the disability spectrum with depression and anxiety kind of being the majority experience So the goal of the site is to kind of make you like make the viewer or the user sorry aware of different kinds of considerations and different disability conditions and how that might affect software with the understanding that it's kind of more of a discovery tool than it is like a this is how to recreate somebody's lived experience so it's a bit of an awkward space for me but I think it still has merit as a discovery tool.

[00:32:44] Candost Dagdeviren: I really liked it when because like it made me think in a different perspective that was a case that I really liked it And I see that you are doing like multiple projects and everything around these topics And I also see that you're writing a lot and I'm also trying to write a lot so to think a bit more in different perspectives and maybe think more deeply about specific topic and et cetera and where do you find the value in writing Because I see your writing in multiple places in smashing magazine or in other places as well And I really think that your writing is good and this is the question Where do you find the value in writing and how do you feel when you're writing.

[00:33:31] Eric Bailey: thank you Yeah the value for me is twofold first selfishly I write about things that are interesting to me so I can reference them at a later Either internally which is like what was this I can't remember Or as I like I told you so so I don't have to have the same conversation 12 times but I think for me the more important thing is like I try to target these publications to get people thinking about these these concerns because the disability communities that I participate in are great but this is a bit of preaching to the choir that happens which is like you're talking to people about what they should do about problems that they already know which is good in that you know it helps the community stay on board Everyone should be doing but if you can present it to people that may not be thinking about accessibility and kind of walk them through what end importantly like why I think that's that's important in terms of writing I'd also like to say that like it's been a journey but if it is something at all you are interested in doing there's like this weird intimidation factor for a lot of these larger publications that's kind of not real they're very hungry for content and they have staff to help you edit your piece so like If you have this cool idea you've been working through or if you have this like project where you learned a ton like write it write it pitch it Like if you get rejected You know you get rejected and that's that stings but also you can put it anywhere You can blog about it I read so many newsletters I read I'm on Twitter all the time unfortunately and for me the important thing is like I really enjoy learning about other people's perspectives working through something even if it's something that technically I'm familiar with because I don't have your perspective and learning how you learn about it might help me learn about it even more So like I encourage you to write if it is a thing you're even remotely interested in.

[00:35:55] Candost Dagdeviren: I think the part where many people find a bit difficult for writing that they don't feel entitled to to write about their idea because they don't think it's valuable And what you said in a moment was your perspective is unique to yourself and your experience is unique to you and nobody had this experience as exactly the same as you And however you learn I can learn from the way you are learning This is this is a great way to phrase it I think Thanks a lot.

[00:36:35] Eric Bailey: Yeah Yeah The other thing is like the web design development space has a really bad superstar problem but it's important to know that like these famous names that you see you know writing these posts and giving these talks like they have nine to five jobs you know they deal with all the same Crap You'd like they punch tickets they have office politics you know they get the right bad code and then refactor it like you know don't don't let that perception intimidate you because it's again it's like writing about something is the easiest way for me to kind of like Open up a trap door and your brain and see how you see the world And that's super cool.

[00:37:22] Candost Dagdeviren: Yeah For for these like superstars in the industry also For some of them it's their job So like if you are working for example nine to five nine to six as a software engineer and want to write something and then you see some person is like giving talk after talk and other and then writing five posts in a week and et cetera sometimes it's their job and they get paid for that Yeah So for me this is kind of sometimes motivating saying that okay this is the job of that person and it's not my job to write about it So it's okay if I don't write five blog posts in a week.

[00:38:03] Eric Bailey: Yeah Yeah It's also I mean this is a job it's a job that I as an individual take a lot of satisfaction from but I know plenty of very skilled talents designers and developers who you know they punch the clock at nine to six if you're lucky And then they they go be with their families you know they go have other hobbies and that is a perfectly legitimate way to exist in this world That's fine That's totally fine.

[00:38:33] Candost Dagdeviren: Yeah It's it's I think it's more fine in Europe Like the culture is different Yeah Yeah I see Like including myself sometimes I just say like after six Okay I'm done Let's see if tomorrow I don't mind anymore Yeah.

[00:38:50] Eric Bailey: Yeah The U S has a really bad workaholic culture and it's not the best.

[00:38:58] Candost Dagdeviren: That's okay Well thank you so much Eric I learned a ton of things from you for every project A11Y project empty prompts and all the writing that you are doing all the talks that you are giving That's awesome And I really appreciate you as a person and also your time You're spending your time on these kinds of topics And thanks a lot for being a guest on this podcast I really appreciate you.

[00:39:32] Eric Bailey: Thank you Yeah this was an absolute pleasure and a privilege and I really enjoyed our conversation and yeah I'm I'm really looking forward to hearing the published version

[00:39:47] Candost Dagdeviren: Hey friends! Before you go here is a quick summary of the actions you can take.

[00:39:53] First, check out a11yproject.com. Second, follow Eric. And third, develop empathy through implementing accessibility features in your projects.

[00:40:06] On a11yproject.com, there's an extensive checklist, as we talked in the episode. Go and look at that one and you will see that there are many many things that you can immediately start adding to the project in a very very small pull requests. Now, click the link in description or go to candost.blog/podcast and check out show notes for the links.

[00:40:31] I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Eric as much as I did.

[00:40:34] Please don't forget to share the episode with a person who you think should hear about accessibility. If you share the episode on social media Don't forget to mention @candosten on Twitter.

[00:40:46] Until next time, take care.

Podcast

Oct 12, 2021
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